Learning Without Scars
As a third-generation educator, it is easy to say that teaching and training are in the blood for Ron Slee. From his beginnings as a coach, through his time at McGill University, Ron developed a foundation for the work he does today. From working within dealerships, to operating a consulting company, creating a training business and running twenty groups, Ron has been directly involved in this Industry since 1969. Ron has been known as the industry expert for years, and has brought this expertise to bear through his training programs. Today, Ron provides specialized, job function based internet based subject specific classes, job function skills assessments, as well virtual seminars and webinars. These courses are designed for manufacturers and their dealers, as well as independent businesses in the construction equipment, light industrial, on-highway, engine, and agricultural industries through Learning Without Scars (www.LearningWithoutScars.com). This platform is a continuation of the work begun by Quest, Learning Centers which was established in 1996. This training is aimed at improving dealer parts and service operations through qualified people that are knowledgeable in using operational metrics and current market and operational best practice methods.
Learning Without Scars
How Educators Build Skills That Stick
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Your best learning doesn’t happen when you’re calm and confident. It happens when you’re stuck, under pressure, and finally willing to say, “I don’t know.” That’s where this candid conversation goes with David Griffith and Caroline Slee-Poulos as we pass the baton to the next generation of “Learning Without Scars” and dig into what actually changes behavior at school and at work.
We connect K-12 education to employee training and leadership development through a simple idea: coaching beats lectures, especially when the brain is in crisis. David breaks down the brain science behind cognitive shutdown under threat and explains the flywheel method of solving one small problem first, then building momentum toward harder ones. Caroline adds what that looks like in real classrooms through AVID tutorials and Socratic peer problem solving, where students map what they know, name where they’re stuck, and practice the courage to ask for help.
From there we zoom out to workforce development, employee retention, and the economics behind loyalty. We talk about the service profit chain, why people can’t stay loyal to a job they were never trained to do, and how employee ownership and a well-designed ESOP can align incentives without burying a company in debt. We also take on living wage, “grandchildren over greed,” and why short-term thinking creates long-term instability for businesses and communities.
If you care about training that sticks, leadership that earns trust, and practical ways to move people from surviving to transforming, you’ll find plenty to wrestle with here. Subscribe, share this with a friend or colleague, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway.
Visit us at LearningWithoutScars.org for more training solutions for Equipment Dealerships - Construction, Mining, Agriculture, Cranes, Trucks and Trailers.
We provide comprehensive online learning programs for employees starting with an individualized skills assessment to a personalized employee development program designed for their skill level.
Welcome And Passing The Baton
SPEAKER_04Aloha. And welcome to another candid conversation. Today we're joined by David Griffith and my daughter Caroline. And you're you're looking at three people that have been involved in learning and teaching and employee development for many, many years. And we're just going to have a discussion. So, David, good to see you. Caroline, good to see you. And and let me let me start it this way. Caroline is taking over learning without scars, and she's kicking me upstairs. And so you and I are going to be in the same quote-unquote emeritus position, David. So let me let me start with Caroline, and and maybe you can give everybody, because not many have heard of you before, who you are, what you do, and where you see taking learning in the future.
SPEAKER_00Just a little just the third, just the 30-second spiel, who who I am, what I do, where we're going, how long will it take to get there? Uh so I am a lifelong educator. Uh, immediately after college, working with your in-person class materials, helping to build your textbooks and kind of growing up in the capital goods industry that way, but also working in the health industry, teaching people proper kinesiology and movement post-injury, post-rehab. Uh, once people came through surgery or injury rehabilitation, they came to me and I helped them maintain daily movement. Um, but from there, I knew I wanted to work with children because, you know, adults were grumpy. And at least with children, they have the excuse of brain development. So I moved into teaching elementary, uh, high school, and now currently middle school. During the school year, I teach English language arts and middle school drama uh to sixth, seventh, and eighth graders, although the English classes are largely seventh graders. I am uh one of the people who had a harder time adopting SEL when we first brought social emotional learning into the classroom because as an English teacher. I thought, what do you mean? It's right there in all these beautiful novels and stories. That's what the class discussions are for. But I quickly adapted to having uh about once-a-week class that was purely focused on mindset, emotional development, and growth. And I find a lot of crossover at this point with the K-12 model and the adult education and professional development because we really are all talking about the same thing, the goals that we want to achieve, where we see ourselves, the growth we want to attain, hopefully, and the vision everybody has for their future. It's just a matter of being able to build the skills and the imagination to get there. And so the emeritus thing isn't really what I consider kicking you upstairs. Although if I'm kicking you from California to Hawaii, that is impressive, and I should be hired or studied or something. But uh it's letting you do what you do. Talk to people, not have to do the endless, you know, emailing and managing and double checking and triple checking and ins and outs. So I've been doing our curriculum design, our accreditation program, which I did by myself. Don't recommend doing that alone to anyone ever. My teacher friends all told me that wasn't so.
SPEAKER_04Let me interrupt there for a quick second. That's for ISET, the International Association of Continuing Education and Training. And and David, Caroline will tell you about the book, but every single class, as you're aware in teaching, has to have an outcome statement and a methodology of how
Building An Accreditation From Scratch
SPEAKER_04you get there. And thankfully, because Caroline's an educator with a master's in education, she was able to do something that there's no way in the world I would have been able to do. So maybe you could talk a little bit about ISED and our accreditation.
SPEAKER_00Well, there were a few times I thought I wouldn't be able to do it either. Um every governing board has a process that they want all members to follow. And coming up through K-12. Flow charts and organizational charts were a big thing. So my first submissions for review, because it's a it's a living process, living documents. They're like, oh yeah, there are a lot of flow charts here to show your processes. We don't like those. Okay. We prefer things that look this way, or maybe this template, or try this format. And I'm an English person. So I like my narratives. I like my flow charts because they're a simple format for me to follow and include my narrative. And all of a sudden it was, oh, I have to learn this new diagramming. Uh, they needed me to express my blooms differently. They needed all of it to look a little different. So all told the process was about two years from the initial start and meetings, reviews, and so on. Uh, testing our content, looking at our content and refining it. And then we received our accreditation. Uh, there is an American-only version of it, but so much of Dad's work has been overseas as well or up in Canada. I didn't want to push on an American-only program and then have us end up in Belgium consistently because it felt like that was what we did a lot. Uh, the second we'd get in a groove in one place and get everything modeled for them, it was uh now. Tokyo would like to talk to us. And so um, the direction we're going in is broadening our resources for our students. We have been bringing in more subject matter experts, looking at the flatbed truck industry and all of the different safety requirements the drivers are supposed to adhere to, and the fact that there's not really a consistent across all platforms training methodology in place. So we have a couple of subject matter experts there working with us. I'm working on some of the basic business language that people need to have when they go into their first job. I'm noticing a lot of students aren't graduating with certain skills. So I'm trying to make something that can help fill in a little bit of the gap so students aren't drowning in the deep end when they first start working. And we are getting some other subject matter experts in other fields, even ones that are pretty far afield from what we have done historically in Capital Goods, to start helping professionals to achieve their goals and continuously improve. Uh we are also, you know, doing a pretty big ask, at least in Capital Goods. There are a lot of programs that aren't mandatory. So a manager might encourage certain training, but it's not, your job doesn't depend upon it. Um so getting the buy-in from students has been kind of an amazing thing. So we do a little bit of everything though, from onboarding to annual performance review content, things that people can use and take with them no matter where they work, no matter how far they grow in one company before moving to the next, if that's what they choose.
SPEAKER_04And and David, I think you fit into that with all of the programs that you've been involved with for a long time now, and what your wife was involved with in helping people get through challenging periods in their lives, whether it's poverty or illness or what have you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, or manufacturer relations. Um it's yeah. Um well, it you know, Ron and and and Caroline, as you know, I spent I still am involved in the material handling industry and um was involved
From Industry Training To Anti-Poverty Work
SPEAKER_01with AED and ARA and NAW and Mejida and all those good things. And it's um one of the when I talk about education and training, um, it's interesting because uh my last gig was 10 years running a nonprofit that was focused on poverty in Philadelphia and and families and how to go from maintaining to transformation. And and I think there's a lot of parallels in the in the transformation model because fundamentally they're coaching models. So, Caroline, when you're you know teaching people how to become managers or how you come from school to go into industry, at the end of the day, it's it's it's coaching and how do you become a really good coach and an effective coach. And it's interesting you mentioned social and emotional learning. Um that was and continues to be the bedrock of our work with uh you know sixth, seventh, and eighth graders um in the program. Uh, we partnered with Penn State, where SEL really got some detailed legs. Um, and and I'm a big fan of social and emotional learning um when it's partnered with you know science and math and some of the core curriculums that need to go to get success. But you know, if you if you come back to the the work we did with individuals experiencing poverty, um our research led us to uh to to basically develop a coaching model that that was designed around brain science. And that model I think applies across a wide spectrum of disciplines. And basically it says, look, when when you are in crisis, your cognitive function shuts down, and there's all kinds of data that supports that. And and
Crisis Brain Science And The Flywheel
SPEAKER_01when you think about problem solving, that's what we did in the material handling industry, in any industry, um, or whether you're a young person in school, you're problem solving, you're dealing with life, um, and it goes through. And what what the science discovered was that if you can get on a flywheel, if you will, let's deal with the simple problem first and solve that. Hmm, that felt pretty good. Let's go to the next one, a little bit more complicated, and start to build momentum. So that flywheel, if you know, we all know that model. You nudge it, it starts to move, it builds momentum, builds momentum, builds momentum. And what we discovered is that if you have a coach that can help you think through those early days, and then the more complex and the more complex, and develop a guide map. Okay, what are you interested in? What's you know, what's the big challenges? Well, maybe it was housing, or maybe it was I need skills to get a job, or I need to understand what's available out there, or I'm dealing with you know medical issues in my family from my parents, and I'm working three jobs and none of them are living wage, and I don't have time, and you know, things that frankly a lot of people took for granted, and and yet um, you know, they're they're real barriers. And what we learned is is that if we would put a general coach and then a subject matter coach, maybe it was for finance, maybe it was for housing, maybe it was for let's get you into a um you know an apprentice school or you know, whatever the the interest is, um those two combined with an individual working through would have a profound effect. And then the second thing we learned is that many people get out of poverty and they're one crisis away from slipping back into it. The car breaks down, rent comes due, you get a you know, what whatever it is. And so we we took our endowment and we committed to a savings match to match dollar for dollar up to $10,000 over a period of time. So an individual who would complete the program had the possibility of coming out of there with 20,000, 10 they raised, and 10 that we matched. And we just and that number was not a random number. What we discovered is that should be enough to handle a couple of crises. And also it got people in the habit of saving. And so, you know, when you're in poverty, you don't save. So the the idea of, and then we had advocacy for living wage and some of those other things that that um you know are policy issues that are still dramatically driving things. But what we wanted was a holistic solution that said, look, we we'll we'll maintain, we'll help you maintain, with and there's a lot of great agencies that do that. And our view was that we called the program mindset, but what we viewed was that socialemotional learning and STEAM for the youngsters was their version of mindset. And then for the adults and uh you know, older, you know, late teens, early childhood, uh early adulthood, rather, um, would would would be a methodology that works. And you know, today now we have about 150 agencies that have adopted that model. And and to be clear, you know, Boston invented it, did the research. You know, we we put it on steroids and we did the savings match and we bat it basically combined it with social and emotional. And uh you go. Now, the resistance is it takes time. And what everybody wants is a quick fix. I don't care whether it was, you know, I'll just go hire 30 techs and my service problem will be solved. Well, we all know if you hire 30 at once, 22 of them are not gonna make it a year, you know. So it's you know, how do you train? You know, the stuff that Ron worked on early, you know, how do I build a qualified technician? Um, and then the holy grail was how do you build a technician that's gonna stay with you?
SPEAKER_00And we can get into that whole story, but uh one not just customers for life, but employees for life.
SPEAKER_01Employees for life is the real secret. Good employees for life, yeah. Yes.
SPEAKER_04It's interesting, you know. Harvard put something together years ago in accounting in their MBA program called the service profit chain, which started with employee loyalty, then you know best practices, then customer loyalty, and then profit. But the the main criteria is if you've got loyal customers, your business is fine. And then the trick becomes how does an employee become loyal? Well, the fundamental is that they know how to do their job, and that shocked the hell out of me that most people never really understood what the job was, nor were they trained by their boss to what the job expected. And it's it's it's amazing to me.
SPEAKER_01But but here's the missing leg in that, uh, Ron, and we've talked about this. My my father-in-law, Joe McEwen, who founded Modern, really understood that by sharing the wealth with the business, um, and then when I came in to the board, we went ahead and we we executed
Employee Loyalty And ESOP Done Right
SPEAKER_01on an employee stock ownership plan. And and but here's the genius that Joe had, and he and I worked our way through. We had an eSOC for 20 years before we pulled the trigger to sell it to the employees as our transition. And the beauty is you you can give U.S. stock if if company stock is not available. Well, why do you do that? So that when you pull the trigger to move shares to the employees, you don't take on an unmanageable debt load. Yeah. Because most eSOPs fail because the amount of debt they take on. The owners are fine, but the company then has debt that's not invested in capital or inventory or AR. It's invested um, you know, to buy shares, and that puts an unnatural burden on the company. So Joe figured out very early with some good advice from an outside board. Um, he did two things. One, we were the number two with uh Vanguard's 401. So we had it, we had a 401k and we had an ESOP that we put US we put cash in that bought U.S. securities. And um it it it was an interesting deal. Joe's vision was, you know, about 50% of what we make that would be, you know, maybe an owner's distribution becomes an employee distribution. And he and I worked through that in a in a in a way, but Joe really had the vision. I worked on implementation, but Joe had a great expression that I adopted. Would you rather own 100% of this or 50%? And my arms are going way out, and everybody comes out ahead. And you know, our famous story is in the great recession of 07, 08, 09, um, when we were looking at layoffs, we had technicians come to us and say, hey, look, we know how hard it is to keep the family together right now. We'll work 30 hours. Now, if I had announced that, there would have been a riot. But the employers came and said, you know what, we want to we want to take care of the family. We can make 30 hours work. They knew all of us were adjusting salaries, and they they kind of went through. I don't think that works in any other environment, other than where you bring the team along, you make it a great place to work, you deal with performance, you train, you invest, but then you also share the wealth. And and that's the greatest legacy that that Joe McEwen had. I mean, and I gotta tell you, I've I've taken that model into the nonprofit world. Um when I went in it works everywhere. No, I remember the board meeting. I'd been, I think, ED for about six months. I went to the board and said, look, um, we're an anti-poverty agency, right? And they said, Yeah, absolutely. I said, Well, then how come we're not paying living wage to our employees? And it got really quiet. Yep.
SPEAKER_04It's it's it's really interesting, David. I've worked with eesops the way you characterize them. When they first came out, it was a way for the owner to get his money and and like you said, left a burden with the employees. And they it was terrible. And I've worked with three or four companies exactly the way that you and Joe set it up, and Joe was brilliant. And the the one that I'd like to talk about is in Alabama, and it's it's three generations now, and they st they still do the same thing. Employees are selected, and then they're given money, a loan, to buy shares. It's a it's a a twist. And every year the splits on profit, 25 to 50 percent of whatever goes back to the employees and gives them the opportunity to spend it or buy the shares themselves because they've been they've got a loan. When they leave the company, they sell it back, and whatever the value is, everything's done. And Caroline, one of the worst days of my life was in Alberta when the oil industry went the tanks and we'd opened up a small company, we got ourselves up to two million dollars a month, and over the weekend the market dropped by 50 percent. And I had to 708. Yep. And I had to have everybody into the the we had a theater for training and all that stuff, and they're all in there, and we had this discussion, and I asked which way I said they. This is how much we need, and they chose a reduction in pay of 10%. And I figured that that was enough. Turns out I was wrong. About a week later, 15 days later, I recognized what the right number was, and I had to call the group back together and ask them for more money. So worst day of my life. Ever. Well, and business day. Let me qualify that.
SPEAKER_01Well, it's it's yeah, no, good, good qualification. Um you know, I've seen you on a surfboard. So um the the the the you know you gotta live through that. And one of the things that I really worry about is the the generation, and I'm not trying to throw because I have kids that are in this generation, you know, that haven't lived through one of those and don't understand the the fundamentals of building
Scar Tissue And Business Puberty
SPEAKER_01a business, or you know, they want to go to Wall Street and they want to do, you know, I want to do private equity. And well, where the hell do you think private equity comes from? It's from, you know, individuals that have made money and it's you know, and if if you're a business just to make money, I think you're set up for failure. Yep. I think if you're if you're there to provide value to customers, create employment for your, you know, and and lifestyle for your employees, you're gonna go along for a great ride. And and you know, I if if if your values aren't shaped around that, you know, and that's a little bit where I think we're in our current crisis right now. Um and again, I come back to you, you want to own 100% of this or 50% of this. And and a lot of people, you know, re keeps the pie small, but if you want to grow it, you you gotta go on a journey with a lot of people and you gotta be focused. And the best way to do that is have you have a common pocketbook. Now, did did did did do CEOs get paid more? Absolutely. I'm I'm not arguing that.
SPEAKER_04But you know, when when you come out of school and you get into business, I call it business puberty. You haven't you haven't lived until and Caroline Mummy and I used to talk about we can't both panic at the same time. But you haven't lived when you don't have enough to money to meet payroll, and that you have to go out and and do it. And all of a sudden you know what life is about, and that changes your whole perspective.
SPEAKER_00Well, and it's interesting because David just said, you know, there will be a lot of people who choose greed. And one of the things I've noticed is that that thinking small, 100% of this, that's also kind of the crisis mentality.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_00I need that instant gratification, I need it to be all mine because I don't know where the next thing will come from. And it it is that um it's like a mindset trap. Uh what they call it, uh operating from a position of of lacking, not a position of of abundance or growth. And and it is like the generations coming up now that in some sense haven't had to figure it out. Uh-oh, we're not gonna make payroll, or uh-oh, the whole economy, including real estate, everything just tanked all at one time. Now what? But they're also inheriting growing up with people who did see it. And just like people coming through the the Great Depression changed the way their children responded to things. I see when I first started teaching, kids would, you know, hug me and say it's like having an extra mom at the middle school level. Now they hug me and say it's like having an extra grandmom because times have changed. But um their parents remember everybody getting laid off. They remember lice because the pandemic did it too for a lot of them. So I will end up in the position where I have children who will voluntarily get signed out of school at 16 because they have to go to work. And the options aren't necessarily there. And those kids very much are uh, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna earn this, I'm gonna have this. And the only sharing they think of is, and I'm gonna buy my mom a house. Like that's their one. But everything else has to be here in this tiny bubble instead of the 50% of the half the span of the room, right?
SPEAKER_01So so the great challenge is how do you get American, in my case, American business leadership to acknowledge that you know employee participation in the pie is is the proper model. And you know, the unions uh have great value, um, but you know, it sets up a dynamic where you know it's confrontational. And you know, we we we've really got to think through the the the business model that still allows entrepreneurs to to do their magic and competent business to do their magic and earn reasonable rewards, um with with reasonable being you know on the upper end. But it's it's you know, I I you know my expression in my blog, Muddy Boots, is uh you know, grandchildren over greed.
SPEAKER_04So listen to that, everybody. Grandfathers over greed. What what I've been calling it is profit over people. Yeah, it's grandchildren over greed, not grandfathers. Grandchildren over greed. In other words, our generation is spending the money that our children are gonna need. We're we're putting it into things for us, not thinking about what's behind us. And that's that's the whole thing about the challenge in front of us. The top, doesn't matter what number, say the top 10 percent get 80% of the income. And and what David said right at the beginning that when you're in trouble, cognitive skills, I'm gonna call it weaken rather than go away. So you're forced in a crisis to use your mind, but your mind is not as well prepared as it should be. So taking away everything and fixing the original problem, the flywheel flywheel principle, and then adding them as you can take them on to your capacity or potential, it's so critical.
SPEAKER_01Well, and it's not I'm sorry, it's not socialist, which is often the return I get.
SPEAKER_00No, I I think we have a very poor understanding of what that term actually means because we've uh made it a catchphrase more than a theory of financial it's it's how you sell something that doesn't, you know, you're selling a pig and a poke, you're you're trying to hide the real deal, Marx and Lenin and all the rest.
SPEAKER_04Let's let's not go down that rabbit hole. But business ultimately has to correct it, and neither unions nor politicians are gonna do it. Jamie Diamond's got some wonderful comments about society, but nobody follows them.
SPEAKER_01Well, that and that's and in there lies here, but here's my simple algebra roughly 30 percent of the U.S. lives below living wage. Agreed, and not the poverty level, living wage. Yep, and and in there lies a whole political morass.
Living Wage As An Economic Strategy
SPEAKER_01So imagine if you could get now this would trigger inflation, and I understand that, but imagine if you could get that group to living wage with productive work, not giveaways, not government subsidies, you would have 30% more consumers in the United States. And I particularly happen to think immigration, we've shot ourselves in the foot because that that's a whole different discussion. But labor has got to come from somewhere, and our birth rate is not gonna sustain it, and we can go down that rabbit hole. But but imagine the consequences of 30% more consumers in an economy that's essentially driven by 70% consumption. You know, we're not a manufacturing country anymore at the level that I think we should be. There's some public policy that that I absolutely agree. We've got to bring back fundamental manufacturing, fundamental engineering, fundamental farming, um, small business entrepreneurial ship because of the incubators that cause. Um and and you know, we we sit here arguing about, well, I don't have labor. And and the issue is, you know, it's I'm gonna try as a business guy, I'm gonna try and get the the lowest cost labor I can because it'll generate higher profits. I I think that model is fundamentally flawed in that you're you're you're gonna get the quality that you're paying for. So customer service and quality of product and you know the whole service model, uh, which you know we all know, Ron, is where the money is made in our our business. We we don't make it selling stuff, we make fixing it and parts and you know, maybe renting stuff from time to time, although the big boys have changed that dynamic. It's it's you know, to me, just that fundamental debate where we're getting short-sighted. And and you know, we need to have that that tide rise. Otherwise, your taxes are gonna go up because of the social safety net. If you decide you're not gonna do the social safety net, you're gonna have civil unrest. You know, you back me to the corner and don't give me an option. I'm gonna protect my family and do whatever it takes. And we better not get indignant about that because you would do the same thing in the circumstances. So it's 100%.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, there's there shouldn't be a question about that.
SPEAKER_04If you take that to an extreme, yeah, the people that have the wealth in that environment are the ones at risk. The survivors will find a way. Yeah. Right. But it's all it's it's it's all wrong. And and it's you know, this whole thing about um work hard, you'll make a living. Where, you know, and there's published Department of Labor publishes salary scales by job function, union and non-union, and it's in every library in the country. And when you look at the numbers, like you say, 30%, it might even be higher. Here it's higher in Hawaii. Yeah, 30% are are it's a living wage. If anything goes wrong, they're dead. Anything.
SPEAKER_01Well, and then you look at the other models, look at Russia, look at China, I'll take this. Yeah. And and do we really want to trade for that? I'd I I would argue those, you know, China's an interesting model right now, but it's uh I I don't think it you know it's it's sustainable is is the question. But you know, I I still think we have the greatest experien uh experiment on earth. And and we we need to figure out, you know, our our great value is in our diversity, our our great value is in immigration, and to treat that as a threat to us, you know, we are a consumer society. You need consumers.
SPEAKER_04That's the interesting thing about America that's different than just about everybody else. Yeah, we are consumer-driven. I was at a conference about 10 years ago in Brussels with a bunch of financial folks, and they were talking about China not having enough money to sustain itself, and we're seeing it today. Yeah. They so and and the other models, whether it's Russia or China or Iran or or North Korea, I'm I'm I'm not interested in those. I'm after a meritocracy. I want people that have the talent to be rewarded, and I want people that are on their way to having the talent be given enough money such that they have time to get the talent. So, Caroline is I think you're still a curricular director for Abbott, are you?
SPEAKER_00Um, I am still currently the program director. I just don't get to teach it anymore because I don't even have a the prep period, David. You know, the like one walk a time where a teacher doesn't teach
Bringing Arts Back Into STEAM
SPEAKER_00a class. I go straight through um because that was the only way to bring drama back to our middle school. They had no drama program at all. We were a STEM academy.
SPEAKER_04They went to STEM in California this year. And guess who took on the art?
SPEAKER_00Just my school.
SPEAKER_04Oh, really?
SPEAKER_00We were we, I uh when I switched districts, when I moved over to lose my commute time and also uh working on the shores of the Salt and Sea, David, I couldn't breathe. I have asthma without extra assistance. I didn't need the salt and sea to enhance it. Um, so I work around the corner from my home and I'm at a STEM academy. And we got a new principal, and she said, Well, what I would love for us to do is make this a STEAM academy. So she really elevated the band program. We already had band. Uh, she really worked hard with the art teacher, and it was an annual, come on, how about drama? Let's bring back drama. And uh, and so I said, Yes, okay, I I will do drama. And wow, I was a drama kid, I was a musical theater kid, but uh that looks very different on the other side.
SPEAKER_03Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00Uh except for getting up there and singing and dancing with the kids and actually acting with them. That's a blast. The production side of it, I just hand it off entirely to another teacher, finally.
SPEAKER_01So well, but the arts have, I mean, you know, you go back to prehistoric times, people were drawing stuff on cave walls. You know, maybe it was to record history, maybe it was really writing, maybe it was for the sake of art. Um, but you know, I have a daughter who's in the art business, and it's a uh, you know, it's it's it's it's a it drama, music, arts, all that is is just fundamentally important. And it's interesting in the neighborhoods where we had some of the worst poverty, the arts were thriving. You know, it's um isn't it amazing, David?
SPEAKER_04That's how expression comes out. Yep. It's almost like when there's no hope, it's great.
SPEAKER_01Well, and and one of the most effective counseling locations in the neighborhood was the barber shop. And you had three or four barbers who figured out that they could get a young person and they had them strapped in, and they started to ask core questions, and then they handed them off to agencies, and there was a partnership formed, and it was brilliant, it was absolutely friggin' brilliant, and then because they were perceived as successful businessmen, because they were, you know, when they gave advice or they gave advice, it got followed. And you know, some of these kids don't have fathers, don't have moms, you know, but they'll they'll get their hair cut.
SPEAKER_04Another place that that happened was in the public house in Britain, the pubs in the old days. Yes, it became community, and I don't want to miss avid stands for advancement via individual determination. So it's a meritocracy. And the thing that scared the hell out of me, Carolyn explaining this to me, is that once a week, every kid in every class had to stand up for 15 minutes and talk to his classmates or her classmates about something that subject made a difference in their lives about.
SPEAKER_00Well, it was
AVID Tutorials And Saying I Don’t Know
SPEAKER_00slightly different than that. We do tutorials, so it was the point where I, as the teacher, get out of the way because the students all fill in um a form, a template based on something they're doing in a class that has dumped them. And the entire methodology of that student getting past where they're stuck is Socratic. So the student has to stand up and present what they don't know. This is what the question is in this class. Here are all the things I already know about it, and they have to map it out for you. And they and then here's the part where I get stuck, because a lot of times what they can't tell you at the beginning is where is the problem? Yes, here's the question. Is that the end of it? Is that where you're stuck? You have no idea what the first step is, or are you getting so far and then going, well, what the heck? Now what? So they work exclusively with each other, where a student will say, Oh, I have that teacher, and did you happen to look at this page in this textbook? And then everybody's staring at it. They reread. And then the student goes, Oh, I see what you're talking about, blah, blah, blah. Maybe I could try this, or they'll say, you know, I got stuck on this, and I found that if I went outside this particular class and looked over at math, I could find something else. And they're making connections, but also having the conversation. Have you tried this? What else did you try? Where are you stuck? And my favorite was the kid who because avid is usually designed for students who don't have any family members who've gone to college. Usually designed for the students who are not 4.0. Uh, there's a contract for behavior and grades once you get in, but we don't expect you to be coming in the door with the grades and the behavior already. So, my first year teaching Avid properly as a standalone class, I had a kid who was, oh God, you're stuck with him. Everybody was like, We're so sorry. And he came in and he said, I have the best avid tutorial question today. And I said, Okay, what is it? And he said, Well, you know I love soccer. And I said, Yes. And he said, What is the most effective foot placement for getting a leftward spin on a soccer ball when you kick it? I just looked at him, I said, Oh, holy crap, you brought me physics. Does anyone know physics? Well, I had a tutor in the class who was a college student. She said, Oh, I'm in physics right now. I can work with the group. I have never seen a more engaged, excited group because they're charting it, they're writing it, they're discussing it, but they're also trying to stand up with a ball and figure out what if it's at the top? Is it at the bottom? Is it do you curve? Do you even kick straight? How do you do it? And it has applications everywhere, but they have to spend a minute being the subject matter expert on what they do not know before they even get started. And that is a huge ask for middle school.
SPEAKER_01But what you're also doing them is giving them the courage to admit, I don't know. Exactly. And and what you reminded me of is, and and Ron, I remember early on when you talked about this is the toolbox check-ins in the morning. And those conversations would take place, you know, well, what are you seeing? What are you working on? What's going on? And the guy would say, Well, you know, I can't get, you know, this is what I'm getting, I can't go. And they would solve it. Yep. And and, you know, and then knowledge was passed on, or tips, techniques, you know, habits, whatever, were uh Were passed on. And I, you know, every now and then I would drop in on one of those and I was completely clueless. And uh, you know, they they asked me to be quiet, stay away, don't answer, don't give what you think, and just watch that process work. And I think that's the essence of learning is hey, you know, nobody cares about what you know. What you gotta care about is what you don't know and being able to move it to the other box.
SPEAKER_04I used to think I used to talk with people and say, okay, what what is standing in your way from being able to do a better job? And they share it. And I say, okay, fine, I'll take that away from you. I'm gonna do that for you for a while. Is there anything else? Now all of a sudden they're stuck, aren't they? And that when I take it over and start doing it, then we have that discussion like what Caroline just went through. Did you try this? Did you try that? And all of a sudden, any inhibition, getting people to stick their hand up in the air saying, I need help, is difficult because that's not a that's not a commonly positive thing about life.
SPEAKER_01And yet that's the best leadership school leader can have. No question. Failure is you can't run if you don't fail. Well, and and it's pretty arrogant to think you know everything. Oh, come on. Really?
SPEAKER_00Well, we had in educational research, we always talked about the fact that um in 1943, Abraham Maslow published his study on human motivation, I think it was. And he came up with his hierarchy of needs. And much like the crisis mindset, if a student does not have basic physiological needs met, like food, water, clothing, uh, basic medicine, if a student does not have safety, whatever that may mean under the circumstances. And if they don't have the third category, love and belonging, they will not be able to learn. And and that led to, you know, school meal programs and things like that, because we can fix some of that. But the love and belonging, that is those conversations with peers. That is the here's what I know, but here's what I don't know, and here's my point of confusion. And adults especially are terrified of that. Hopefully, adults who went through AVID are not as terrified of it because they know what the collaboration looks like and they know what the team shared problem solving looks like. But it's a scary thing to stand up and say, I'm doing this and now I have no idea what the heck to do next.
SPEAKER_04When what Chris said that to me, and I think it was not just today, but earlier, that when you're in crisis, I had not ever considered this. When you're in crisis, your cognitive skills deplete or disappear. Yeah, it makes imminent sense, and I'd never really considered it. The the deal is let people get comfortable, let people have enough, and it doesn't matter what it is, whether it's love or whatever.
SPEAKER_00It's you know, we have logic over our animal brain, yeah. And when there's a crisis, the zebra that needs to outrun the lion jumps on top of the logical brain and takes over. It doesn't matter if there's not really a lion, that's the part of your brain that is going to help you live through it. So, yes, the cognitive skills, as David said, they take the back burner on us.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Oh, there he is.
SPEAKER_04Ah boy, and now you know Caroline's got a service animal that's a across between what, a poodle and a lassa? No.
SPEAKER_00No, that was Mum's uh little fluff ball there. Um Charles is well, chihuahua mix, nobody knew what. And the vet was looking
Therapy Dogs And Better Conversations
SPEAKER_00at him as he started to age, and he's his markings started to change. And the vet looked at him and he said, He's a cattle dog. Which explains a lot. Especially the deep eye contact, the look at me, go over there, get over there, get over there. And he's he's a retired service uh dog now. He retired after after my mother uh died. That was uh he uh she had a couple events of events there at the end where he decided, I've got this, I can do it. Let me just, you know, put pressure on you and change your breathing pathway. And and so he's he's a tired little pampered pooch now, but smart and a good sidekick.
SPEAKER_04But look at that, Westy. Isn't isn't it well he or is she Clover Clover?
SPEAKER_01Is this is our third. This is Clover, uh, a female. She is my secret weapon at work. I would I would I would bring her in, and yes, you're gonna we're talking about you, and she would she wants to get down, she's nervous to be on air. And I would let her I would let her wander around the office, and who wherever she stopped, that's where I would go check in. And her hit rate was about 80 percent. I'll be darned, I'll be darned. And somebody would be sitting there scratching her ears. Some people she well, she knew what people had treats, but it uh yeah, which is not a bad skill set. No, that at all. And uh, but it was it was like almost uh unfair, and um, you know, what's going on, what's this, what that. And invariably, you know, this whole issue of therapy dogs and and sense is absolutely freaking true. And it was uh, you know, people would go, Well, how do you know? And I said, Well, I just I'm just asking, you know, and they eventually figured out that if the dog stayed, you know, the boss was coming in, so she got shooed on occasion. But I would let her, you know, I I put her in the corner of the office of my office, she would fall asleep or go under the desk. And it just changed the dynamic when uh you know, when people were talking. I didn't do it every day, but you know, every now and then it's uh you know, you gotta shake the mix up. And uh but oh okay. Now when when I do it with your dad, you know, he just melts.
SPEAKER_00So I mean it's uh Yeah, they don't they don't really have dogs in your building, right? You're allowed to have a cat or something, but not a dog.
SPEAKER_04Cats and birds. Dogs they frown on unless it's a service animal, but a lot of people are cheating on service animals now.
SPEAKER_00There's a big test your dog has to take to properly have its good citizenship package. And it's not a joke, it's uh it's extensive. And Charles is really smart, so we did it uh took us a month, um, but mostly because I needed to be trained on what exactly he was supposed to be able to do to qualify as a good citizen. And it was my doctor who said, take him to this class. That is an unusual behavior, and that is a very useful skill. But he was also my secret weapon in Zoom learning. Kids didn't want to turn on their cameras until all of a sudden here's the dog.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And then they want to turn on the camera and say, here's my goldfish, or here's my bird, or here's my chicken. There were a lot of chickens.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04So we we we've been talking for almost an hour.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04What what do you think? David, is this a worthwhile exercise for people to listen to?
SPEAKER_01Well, now you're asking me if I'd want to listen to myself, and my wife would say no. Um I uh look, I I think anytime these topics get discussed, it's interesting. Um I I also think having people get to know Caroline as the baton gets passed is uh I certainly know a whole heck of a lot more in the background. And you know, I look forward to uh you know seeing the game get elevated, you know. That's what people said when I stepped down. So I mean it's uh look, I uh you know, uh you know my my theory, Ron, you know, you the learning comes in a lot of different ways, and and scar tissue is the best teacher. And when you share it, um I think it's a service to people. And you know, whether there's a lot of scar tissue in this discussion, who knows? But you never know. Yeah. Caroline? I sorry, David. I didn't mean the conversation.
SPEAKER_00The more people do have these conversations and the more people participate, whether it's listening to or sharing in the conversation. I I think that's the sweet spot. I think that's where we do start thinking differently or responding differently or making those changes on the topic of living wages or on the topic of wait, I'm just surviving from one crisis to the next. Maybe I should look to see if there's another option for me.
SPEAKER_01Well, and the other Ranyah, there's no reasons these can't be bigger circles. Oh, I agree. And and an interesting thing would be to have, you know, I've been I've met with the same bunch of guys in my forum for 31 years. Wow. And we meet it used to be 90% business, very
Radar Roundtables And What’s Next
SPEAKER_01little personal. Now, you know, it's almost entirely personal. And you know, the occasional meal out, the occasional road trip. Um and I wouldn't I wouldn't tread that for anything, but you know, I think you know moderated discussions are I think really valuable. And Zoom allows you to do it without the pain of travel and flights and all that stuff. And I really think there's a a a dog in that hunt for you guys.
SPEAKER_04I agree.
SPEAKER_01I really do. Yeah, and I mean Mejida, we had small circles, you know, NAW, we had it. Um, and I just think you know, the issues that the industry is dealing with, you know, run pretty deep. And it doesn't need to be all technical. I mean leadership, um, communications, um, you know, crisis management. You know, the other the other one that I'm doing all my boards right now is what I've called radar. And I ask everybody in the board to come with one radar issue or two. And what I mean by that is what's coming at us that's either a crisis or an opportunity, and how are we going to react? And we do that in the context of the strategic plan. We have we have a strategic plan. We know it's only 80% right, but we also know that we're gonna get stress tested by events. And the best way to take advantage of those is who sees it first. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04That's a really good thing. That you know, what do you see on the horizon that is of concern? And then bring to bear with the discussion.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I I think that's a round table. I think that's a service you could offer that would be really powerful. And you have a couple groups, um, or you you know publicize you know the issue, but you lay out the ground rules in discussion, and guys were going to talk about radar.
SPEAKER_04I had a business in the 90s that I started with, a guy by the name of Mac Ferries called Insight, and it was 12 dealers of a common brand.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And we met two or three times a year, shared financials, but it ended up, like you say, it was a band of brothers.
SPEAKER_01Well, it was that that that was the big Ease group in Heister. Yep. We we had our seven, eight dealers, and we would get together three or four times a year. Um, God, I I like it's the guy out of Boston who ran it.
SPEAKER_04Um, I yeah, I know him.
SPEAKER_01I know I mean his daughter's running it now. Yeah. Actually, that'd be fun for you two to match notes. Um well, I I did that's uh Bob Curry. Bob Curry, yeah, yeah. And Robin is running it now.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and I I had the same thing. It was called Insight. We had uh at one point we had six groups, 12 dealers in each. I went to a dirty dozen. And at the end of the we we raised the net income of the group by three to five points. Just by sharing.
SPEAKER_01Well, and I think also building those relationships is invaluable, priceless. So I that that would be kind of my logical extension for Caroline and I. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Radar radar, I mean it's really improved the quality of the boards.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I agree with that. So let me let me just kind of put a bow on this thing and thank every thank you guys and gals. And thank everybody who's been listening. I hope, I hope you stuck with us because there's an awful lot, there's a lot of little nuggets in this that are of benefit to everybody. So thank you for being here, Mahalo, and I look forward to another kind of a conversation in the very near future. Aloha.
