Learning Without Scars
As a third-generation educator, it is easy to say that teaching and training are in the blood for Ron Slee. From his beginnings as a coach, through his time at McGill University, Ron developed a foundation for the work he does today. From working within dealerships, to operating a consulting company, creating a training business and running twenty groups, Ron has been directly involved in this Industry since 1969. Ron has been known as the industry expert for years, and has brought this expertise to bear through his training programs. Today, Ron provides specialized, job function based internet based subject specific classes, job function skills assessments, as well virtual seminars and webinars. These courses are designed for manufacturers and their dealers, as well as independent businesses in the construction equipment, light industrial, on-highway, engine, and agricultural industries through Learning Without Scars (www.LearningWithoutScars.com). This platform is a continuation of the work begun by Quest, Learning Centers which was established in 1996. This training is aimed at improving dealer parts and service operations through qualified people that are knowledgeable in using operational metrics and current market and operational best practice methods.
Learning Without Scars
Cultivating Engagement and Adaptability in the Workplace
What if performance reviews could be transformed from dreaded annual events into opportunities for growth and connection? Join us as Sonya Law, the innovative General Manager of People and Culture at D&E Air Conditioning, shares her transformative approach to employee performance reviews. With a workforce spread across Melbourne's construction and HVAC industry, Sonya reveals her strategies for cultivating a cohesive workplace culture while integrating career development and training pathways into the review process. Discover how the company's first employee survey in 35 years provided invaluable insights into employee engagement and trust, setting a strong foundation for future initiatives.
Get ready to explore the essentials of performance reviews that foster genuine growth and engagement. Drawing upon Patrick Lencioni's principles of job satisfaction, we discuss the importance of role clarity, relevance, and measurable performance. Sonya emphasizes the significance of trust and personal understanding in building effective feedback loops that unlock employee potential. Her vision for a manager's toolkit promises to ensure fairness and consistency, aligning with the core Australian values of equity and transparency.
As we turn the lens on technology and leadership, the conversation shifts to the impact of artificial intelligence and remote work on workplace culture. We reflect on the ways companies like Amazon are reimagining organizational structures to adapt to these advancements, and the importance of maintaining team cohesion in a digitally connected world. Through fascinating examples from around the globe, Sonya illustrates how geographical and cultural factors play a role in adapting to technological changes, underscoring the need for a collective vision and commitment to create an adaptable and thriving workplace.
Visit us at LearningWithoutScars.org for more training solutions for Equipment Dealerships - Construction, Mining, Agriculture, Cranes, Trucks and Trailers.
We provide comprehensive online learning programs for employees starting with an individualized skills assessment to a personalized employee development program designed for their skill level.
Hello and welcome to another Candid Conversation. Today we're taking a different trip. We're going to have a series of people, we're going to talk about employee performance reviews and we're starting this off with our wonderful lady from Australia, sonia Law. Many of you have listened to her before and have read her blogs in the past, and Sonia has a wealth of experience in the human relations side of the world, personnel side of the world, whatever we want to call it. And that's as far as I'm going to go as an introduction on the topic and on her, and we're just going to chat back and forth on what Sonia believes the purpose is for a performance review, how to conduct them, why they're important and what's in the way from us making it happen properly. How did I do in the introduction?
Speaker 2:Well, that's great. Thanks, Ron.
Speaker 1:Thank you. What are you doing today? How about you bring people up to speed with?
Speaker 2:what life is like doing today?
Speaker 2:how about you bring people up to speed with what life is like? Yes, certainly, um. My role um is general manager of people and culture at dne air conditioning, um here in melbourne, australia. It's in the construction industry, mechanical services, so we call it hvac. That's heating, ventilation, air conditioning. So know, 650 employees, sort of nationwide. Yeah, it's a great business built on founders who have been in the business around, I think, 35 years and from trade backgrounds. They're very practical and, yeah, they work within the business. So, yeah, that's yeah, really good. That's where you find me.
Speaker 1:Oh, did you say 650? Yes, yeah, that's yeah, really good, that's where you find me?
Speaker 2:Oh, did you say 650?
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, so with that many people most of them are tradespeople, correct?
Speaker 2:Yes, a large proportion would be construction site.
Speaker 1:yeah, so how do you create a culture when you spread across a country the size of Australia with tradespeople?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's really almost. Yeah, two-thirds would be construction. But we also have a large sort of office space where you've got everything that supports construction estimating, drafting, project managers, estimating drafting project managers, engineers, you've got finance, hr, safety, supply chain, so there's a number of sort of office roles. So within the office it's a very much you know it's a sit down discussion, whereas on-site it would be very different. It would be more ongoing sort of interactions, but no, probably formal sit-downs. But we do have a service tech workforce as well and that is something where you can look at doing those sit-downs. Yeah, once a year at least.
Speaker 1:So this once-a-year sit-down, I suspect it's a formal process, is it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, around sort of mid-year.
Speaker 1:And what would you say the purpose is for that sit-down?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think predominantly it's looking at salary, so looking at it as an opportunity to review the salary is the main purpose. But what we see for the future and the reason I've started here at D&E, is to really formalize those processes where you're actually talking about, you know, career development and career pathways and some of the training that can be taken up within the organization to navigate, yeah, their careers and next moves.
Speaker 1:How many people lead the sit-down With that many employees? It must be 100 people at least.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, definitely easily.
Speaker 1:How do they know how to do these things?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that depends on their experience that they've got from other organisations and you know what they know of that person in terms of performance. You know, today that's really all I've got to go off, but really what I want to bring about is a process and some education and tools, you know, almost like a manager's toolkit, so that they know how to have that conversation, what they need to talk about and, yeah, about that exchange and in fact I suspect that's why you're there in the first place yes, yeah, definitely so a company gets to a size and and I I suspect if let's say a company that's 10 or 20 people, everybody knows everybody it's a.
Speaker 1:It's a very different ball game, but you get to the size that you're at. Now there's structures, now there's job descriptions, now there's standards of performance, now there's wage and salary scales, now there's more order, but it's kind of dispersed when you have that many people leading it. Is that a fair comment? Definitely. So different groups are going to have different responses based on the skill of the leader.
Speaker 2:Yes, definitely.
Speaker 1:And you're trying to change that so that everybody gets the same opportunity for discussion yes, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2:In australia, um, one of the values is fairness, and so you know that very much plays out actually in these conversations is that people, people want equal opportunity for roles and that definitely came through the survey we did recent employee surveys that they want to equally be considered for opportunities, and when you have a system in place that does help, how did they respond to the survey?
Speaker 1:Had they had them before?
Speaker 2:First time yeah, first time in 35 years having employee survey what did they think? Well, it was excellent the results. It was a net promoter score of 44, so it's a employee net promoter score so highly likely to recommend. D&e's a great place to work and there's high degrees of trust and respect and clarity in their role and they're very proud to work here. Yeah, so it was excellent. I think the employee engagement was in the high sort of 80%. Yeah, so it was excellent, excellent.
Speaker 1:I think the employee engagement was in the high sort of 80%, yeah, so it was excellent, excellent. So I suspect that gives you an unbelievable platform to put together what you want to put together.
Speaker 2:Yes, very much so.
Speaker 1:Now you said you wanted to create a toolkit or a toolbox for them. What do you mean by that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's where they can have, yeah, position description and like a skills matrix which could also be used as a selection matrix as well, for when you're recruiting, to assess the person against the job and where the gap is and then out of that have an individual development plan of what training to do and then also to have like a career pathways document where you can see um, you know, navigate, see what your trajectory looks like within the organization it's, it's um you.
Speaker 1:The age demographic I'm going to say are somewhere from 18 to people in their 60s.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, very much so. Yeah, there's a lot of people who stay a long time here. The tenure is very long and the plan is, when we hire you at the start as an apprentice could even be 16, 17,. We want you until you retire. So, yeah, and we want to to. You know, there's no reason why you couldn't become the managing director, so we're wanting to give people, um, yeah, that that could be you, and we want you to be here your whole career if possible yeah, it's, it's.
Speaker 1:It's what we founded with learning without scars. Everything starts from a skills and knowledge assessment yes and we've got the, I guess the shortest.
Speaker 1:We have 23 job functions that we've built these assessments for and 90 question multiple choice to 180. The technicians actually the mechanics are 180 because we break that into different categories of equipment engine transmission, blah, blah but from that skill and knowledge we get a really precise view. Objective review of the individuals yes, yeah, and our assessments are tough. We've probably this year done about 5,000 of them. And in education there's four categories developing, beginning, intermediate, advanced. The advanced is 91% and higher and out of the 5,000, we might have had 300, 350 that hit advanced.
Speaker 2:Yes Wow.
Speaker 1:So the other side of this when you do performance reviews is a lot of people don't realise the scope that their job entails. Have you found that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely, because the role changes over time because of technology, because of change in systems, because of change in personnel, because of changes in geography, like all sorts of things impact it. So one of the key things which has now been completed is position descriptions. That's completed.
Speaker 1:Now to understand, yeah, yeah, the scope of the role is is key, yeah one of the authors that I reference is patrick lencioni, and he has a book he wrote. He writes in fables, so it's easy to read, and one of the books that got my attention was the three signs of a miserable job, and they are anonym. The employee doesn't feel that anybody knows who the heck they are. That's obviously not true with your place. Then irrelevance, and this is the one that opens the door to me a little bit. People don't understand clearly Clarity you used that word earlier and it's really to me it's really important. They don't understand the impact their job has. Absolutely the overall scheme and, yes, and I think that's something that all of us need to work on. But then the last piece and he invented the word is immeasurability. Yeah, yeah, working on a manufacturing floor, I know how many units of work I did today. So when?
Speaker 2:I go home.
Speaker 1:I know whether I did a good job, a bad job or whatever, but very few people have the ability to go home and say I did well today or darn it I. I need to do better tomorrow, because nobody tells them what I call it is what. What doing a good job looks like yeah, and that's definitely that you're talking about yes, yeah from that score and those four categories we have built career paths, learning paths yes yeah, individual classes or four class bundles or eight class bundles yes and we've built certification programs for the country.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes, every country we're in. Yes, and performance reviews, to me, are critical in this whole damn thing and I don't know that managers today, I don't know any manager today that's been trained on how to do a performance review well, it really relies on relationships.
Speaker 2:So if there isn't a foundation of trust, then you know what essentially is. Performance review is about feedback. So you're only, as human beings, we're only going to take on feedback if we trust and respect that person and also if we're open. You know that is if we've got a growth mindset versus a fixed mindset. So before you've even gone into the room, then, because essentially everything is an exchange and negotiation, unless there is that foundation of sort of trust and respect, then the feedback is superfluous. So you can have the best tools, you know a good communicator, but if that doesn't exist, then the, the feed, you know that. You know it's, it's um, it's a toy. Really it doesn't have any impact.
Speaker 2:And when we talk about impact overall, that's really what that employee is wanting to know is like, how am I doing? And I guess, just to sort of a sidestep, is that you know, when we look at kids, you know you know kindergarten sort of. You know we, when we look at kids, you know you know kindergarten sort of, you know elementary sort of school, they know nothing of this concept of performance. This is really something that comes up in the school system and in society and where it's measurable. But sometimes, when we get too fixated on measurability and performance and forget that really the conversation is really about understanding this person and how do we unlock potential?
Speaker 2:That is another reason why sometimes performance reviews can fail, because we get really locked into that script or to you know, high performance through our own experience. What we've really got to open ourselves up to is really getting to know that person, building a relationship, building up that trust and respect so that the feedback is taken on board. And then we as managers too, we also need to ask for feedback so that it's more equal. Because the problem with the performance review as well is that you know you've got an employee and a manager and there's already a power differential. So that's really a reason why it's not always successful as well, because the employee is just going to say whatever is needed to get the if it's linked to the merit or the salary review, and that's. That's not saying that's a bad thing, it just kind of is. But really to get that high performance, it's really that one-on-one relationship with individuals and, um, it will depend on how much work I put into actually building that trust and respect.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you have a hell of a responsibility to do that, and putting it together isn't easy. One of the things. See, if you agree with me, too many employees view getting ahead by being better than somebody else, and I think that's wrong yeah, I don't think there's anything wrong with like wanting to do better, be better.
Speaker 2:That's you know, that's really you know it's part of civilization. It's sort of survival really, really. I guess you know to have the maturity to understand that we. It's more about contribution. So how can I contribute to the overall, you know business goal or what we're trying to achieve here is probably a better measure, I think, rather than performance, because I feel like performance it can get quite competitive. But when we think about how we're showing up, the energy we're showing up with, what is the contribution that I'm responsible for, really taking ownership for? That is probably a better conversation and that's something where often a very skilled manager can do alongside performance, so that we don't have, well, someone's got to be one up on the other.
Speaker 1:Oh, I think I'm going to use shorthand now. I think what you're saying fits with me. I think that what we want to have is the individuals trying to be better than they have been.
Speaker 1:In other words, they're competing with themselves, not with others yes, absolutely you know, I was a competitive swimmer I think I might have told you that years ago and I very rarely lost and I was concerned with did I need to win or was I afraid to lose? And I came to the conclusion that that's a circle, that both of those things are pretty much the same thing, which is kind of like whatever you think your strongest attribute is your best skill. If you take it to an extreme, it's also your biggest weakness. So if I'm standing on the blocks at the beginning of a race and I finished last but I beat my best time, I won, and that's the perspective I've had since I was a teenager, which is kind of different and I think a lot of it. You're right in society there's winners and losers, there's the Olympics and the Commonwealth Games, et cetera, but I'm more concerned with, in a company, their contribution, like you just said.
Speaker 2:I just use short hands, hands, that's all because performance is very short-lived and um is it the athlete. Is it simone biles, the greatest of all time american?
Speaker 2:so yeah, so she um, you know I watched that documentary and she's a really inspirational person. She developed that internal sort of ability to rebuild herself from the ground up, which was quite incredible. It probably comes from her sort of background where she's had to be quite resilient, but that's quite rare and you know that's how essentially, you want to build that into all people. What she has, the way she's been able to rebuild herself, is an incredible story. You probably know more about it than I do.
Speaker 1:Well she's. You know, for the last 10 years she's been the best gymnast in the world. So I mean she has I don't believe she's got anybody we can compare to. It's a heck of a model to look at and to be inspired by yes.
Speaker 1:It's like Rafael Nadal in tennis or Rod Laver in tennis to go back to Australia from Melbourne. There's very few of those people, but we can learn a lot from how they conduct themselves and how they operate and how they think, which is what that documentary was about. It's a hell of a documentary, isn't it?
Speaker 2:It is, it really is Definitely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I'm going to be really intrigued. It's probably going to take you at least a year, maybe two, to put together that toolbox the way you want it to be.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:What do you think is going to be the hardest part of that, the most difficult aspect of it?
Speaker 2:Having leaders go along the journey.
Speaker 1:There you go. That's getting everybody to come on the boat with you, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, to develop the skills to look at performance as potential, not as just a linear line.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, one of the things, one of the purposes of our learning business is to help people identify their potential yes and then give them the tools so that they could realize it. But you know, I use this. Throw a line in classrooms. If somebody says you have a lot of potential when you're 16 years old, that's really something to be proud of. Yes, but if that same person tells you that when you're 66, you have to wonder what the heck you've been doing the last 50 years.
Speaker 2:But isn't it good to have potential at 66?
Speaker 1:Of course, unrealized potential because, especially if they're making a change, I love that and today, with technology being what it is and society being what it is, instead of having one career, like your company has, where people are there 35, 50 years, there's probably going to be four or five careers in people's future in the next 50 years.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:It's a very different world today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you need to be agile and adaptable and smart about locking yourself into a particular title or role. So there'll be a lot more interconnectedness through AI and technology and we'll do things very differently and hopefully better as well, but there'll still be a place for the human factor, I think definitely. The conversation will continue.
Speaker 1:No question about it. Do you know when artificial intelligence was first discussed?
Speaker 2:No, I'd be guessing 60s maybe I was thinking like 60s, but it probably goes back further 1956 at Dartmouth. Okay, not too far off.
Speaker 1:No, you're pretty close, but it's interesting. In the last two to three years it's become kind of common.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:So let's say from 1960 to 2020. Wow, that was 60 years.
Speaker 2:It took society to catch up with technology yes, because it's all in the mind, the mindset, the receptivity amen the example.
Speaker 1:In 1880 the steam engine was replaced by the electric engine. It took a generation before the true capacity and capabilities of the electric engine were realized, because society has to absorb and accept what those tools give us, and that's the case with artificial intelligence. So example computers came in 1950. 50s it could be earlier, but let's say 50. People are still afraid of computers. Yes, you know, I remember the push the button that's going to replace you. Yes, push the button that's going to replace you.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:So we have this transition, this contribution, this clarity of these 100 people that you're going to have to have pretty consistent responses on those reviews in order for them to be beneficial.
Speaker 2:Which is really impossible, of course.
Speaker 2:I was going to say how the hell do you do that? Yeah, it's definitely not going to be like that. It depends on the relationship between the two parties and, yeah, a whole bunch of lived experience and professional life and, as long as at the core and people here are definitely like that they see the potential in each other, they see the best in each other, they definitely have yeah have that sort of you know, contribution and greater good. We're all on the same page, in the same direction and there's really talented high performers here already. So, um, I think it's just more a matter of like, how can we continue to support you or guide you, or? Um, yeah, it's probably more the conversation.
Speaker 1:so, yeah, I think I agree with you. I think, aust, think Australia still has much more openness and helping with each other. Canada to a degree as well, and part of it, I think, is because it's such a big country with such a small population. People need each other, they have to count on each other in order to survive at times. It's tough life, yes, and Canada's the same way to some degree. We've got a huge land mass.
Speaker 2:Yes. But, you know how do you?
Speaker 1:get a doctor to go 1,000 miles up into the Arctic, absolutely, and you've got the same thing in the, the outback and various parts.
Speaker 2:We do the remoteness of a lot of. I was in a country town the weekend and you know medical is really hard for people regionally. Um, they've got to go into cities to get that, yeah, medical sort of attention. But yeah, they have different challenges for sure. So let's wait now. The work from home has produced different challenges too there's people in remote dislocated, not not for our business but, you know, globally.
Speaker 2:I think, whilst work from home has been good in some scenarios, I think it still affects people in terms of, you know, people are social beings and when they're somewhat isolated then it affects their mental health over time.
Speaker 1:It really kicked America. I don't know whether it's more so than other countries.
Speaker 2:It's creativity and innovation, collaboration, problem solving.
Speaker 1:Well, there's one company in Georgia, in the middle of the country, where everybody worked from home, but once a month the owner had a dinner and everybody came together and had dinner together. That's brilliant, it really really is. And COVID is over. People are gradually going back to the office and he asked the employees what do you want to do? Do you want to continue like we've been going the last three years, or do you want to go back to the way we were before? And they wanted to continue the way that they are now? And he sold all their buildings altogether. He rented, he subcontracted out for distribution functions, et cetera, et cetera. And that, to me, is a very smart clever, is a very smart, clever, revolutionary owner and employees. Together they created a hell of a thing and I bet you money you're going to be able to do the same thing Amazon.
Speaker 1:At a discussion earlier this month, the new boss told everybody there's going to be 14,000 fewer managers next year. 14,000? 14,000. Fewer managers, 14,000. Fewer managers. And oh, it's a stunning statement, but it started as a company with 50 million and it's now 6 billion. He said how do you have that transition? We're all partners in this.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, and that's kind of what you're doing and what the 35-year company owners have done.
Speaker 2:Everybody's a partner, everybody's contributing, because when they bought the company back 35 years ago, all the employees came across by maybe one or two, yeah. So I think everyone bought in to the vision for the future and it's a really part, important part to have their hearts and mind you know, that's their loyalty and their commitment in order because, like you were talking before, change takes time, so it takes years, it takes decades, so that's really the ultimate culture is that you know you are able to have people their whole employee life cycle, literally from apprentice to when they retire. I mean what a legacy and retirements they do very respectfully and very well here as well.
Speaker 1:That's the other part. That's the other part. I think you're right that we have as society as technology changes. As the pace of change in technology increases, the stress on society increases, the stress on individuals increases and you need to have really strong leaders to help people be comfortable, not to be terrified about making mistakes.
Speaker 2:Yes or sharing opinions or ideas.
Speaker 1:Yes, you mentioned the word relationship earlier and it's a sales function. Relationship is two people. I don't care whether you're a husband and a wife, or boss or subordinate or co-worker.
Speaker 2:One-to-one.
Speaker 1:Exactly, and I'm not so sure that relationships like kindness is a good word.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And I'm not sure it's that present. As a rule. We go to work and I think the environment that you've got and have created is kindness, is you want to see your friends.
Speaker 2:Like people come to work because they want to see their friends, exactly you know, and they want to socialize the, the work. It gets done, but ultimately it's about the people, it's about the relationships and that's going to make a decision whether they stay, whether they go, if they come in, if they don't come in, like, honestly, people just want that, they want that connection, that sense of belonging.
Speaker 1:And that's where working from home doesn't work. Yeah exactly Very rarely does it work very rarely, very rarely very rarely.
Speaker 2:Definitely so, because we're human beings after all.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're social animals, yeah so you've mentioned a bunch of words and let me play them back. And you've got. You've got the full gamut of job functions. You've got technicians and office people, finance, supply chain, distribution, blah, blah, blah. That's a very factory.
Speaker 2:Sorry, I forgot our prefab okay, very important people and the most important.
Speaker 1:In essence, every single distribution slash manufacturing job function. Yes, yes, and in the midst of that, you're trying to create a culture and we spend more time with each other at work than we do any other group of people in our life.
Speaker 2:I could not agree more. We spend the most time with people at work. Honestly, it's so important.
Speaker 1:these relationships, the only thing, that really is your time in bed sleeping I've never heard it explained like that.
Speaker 2:I kind of like that, no, but it's true. It puts things into perspective well, precisely right, because when I go to sleep at night, I'm thinking about the people. It occupies every waking moment in HR.
Speaker 1:Well, my wife actually sent me to an acupuncturist to see if they could allow me to sleep more. I only sleep about an hour hour and a half. Then I wake up and I have multiple sleeps through the night. And it's because at one point in my life I had a pad and a pen on my night table and I would wake up in the middle of the night, write something down that I didn't want to forget for the next morning. And I stopped doing that, sonia, when I couldn't read my writing the next morning and my grandkids tell me they can't read my writing now. So I don't know how the hell you ever read it. So you use words like fairness. That's not something that is top of mind for a lot of bosses. You went out and you asked you had surveys First time.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And it bore fruit that was very, very beneficial. Yes, yes. All of a sudden, then, the employees felt that they were a part of this creation. Am I saying that? Well, yes, and that then breeds trust. Yes, you're being open, you're're asking what would you like?
Speaker 2:yes, and we're not saying we're not going to make mistakes, right, because that's if you're not making mistakes you're not doing anything, you know, that's right but we're trying to be authentic. We're trying to be real and we're trying to be practical and we're trying to that. That's where it comes from. It's an openness to fix things and be, you know, open yeah, being real and authentic.
Speaker 1:That's another series. I I'm a real fan of words management to me. A friend, a partner of mine, was a man by the name of malcolm ferries who graduated from the air Naval Academy in Annapolis, which is one of the toughest schools in the world. He was a pilot and he had an accident and he wasn't able to fly, so he went to Stanford, got an MBA, then he joined Boeing because of his air background and he was the project leader for Boeing for the lunar landing program inside NASA. This guy was smart like hell, wow, and he taught management later in his life and that's how we got together and he said management is three things. Okay, help me Understand. Yeah, understanding, yes, acceptance yes, understanding.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Acceptance yes. And commitment yes, so he called that U-A-K. Okay, so that people would remember Okay, yeah, that's how you call it.
Speaker 2:You get some things U-R-K, U-R-K yeah that's right, you.
Speaker 1:and understanding his statement is everybody has to understand what we're trying to do.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:So clarity in the statement is critical.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:He's then said the biggest trouble we have in the world is acceptance. Correct, we do not allow the employees to fight about it. They need to accept that what we're trying to do is actually the right thing to do. Yes, and if they don't, I want to fight about it. And he uses the word fight rather than debate because it's more visceral. People understand it better. But he says if you let people have a debate about it and you don't interfere, you just let them go. You don't filter it, you just let them go. The ideas get better Because you got more eyes and ears and heads. You know, everybody is better than me. We will always be better than I. And this is how he did it. And then he said if you get understanding and acceptance, commitment's easy. It's kind of like defining the problem you got the solution, until you define the problem.
Speaker 1:I don't know what I've got to do.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1:So that toolbox you're creating, that's magic.
Speaker 2:It really is.
Speaker 1:And you're perfect to put it together. Quite frankly, thank you, thank you Wonderful.
Speaker 2:They're really good people here here and it's an amazing culture and very grateful um. Yeah, and it's yeah. It's just great to get up every day and just work with such real people. Yeah what?
Speaker 1:what do you think of the discussion, the conversation we've had?
Speaker 2:yeah, um, yeah, I guess the most important part for me is that business is really about relationships, so it's really about understanding each other and, yes, as you say, like I agree, it's acceptance and there's ownership on both sides for that. Otherwise, it's very hard to have an exchange or, you know, trusted feedback, and then, yeah, yeah follows. Is the commitment really? Um, we all sort of choose how, how we want to show up in terms of our energy and our contribution. Um, I think people are pretty honest with themselves, you know, in evaluating themselves. I think that's something culturally here.
Speaker 2:I think people have that self sort of evaluation and then having this performance review process will really just enable us to help them to get to know themselves better, you know, and how to navigate their careers, because we want the best for people and when we have the best for people, then we have the best for D&E.
Speaker 2:You know, very humble, hardworking people with very good intentions, and, whilst business can be challenging, like you said, with the pressures, it's just, you know making that commitment each day to stay the course, and you know that's what we ask for and you know we are very good in making sure that you know making that commitment each day to stay the course, and you know that that's what we ask for and you know we, we are very good in making sure that, you know people are cared for and that we celebrate the wins and um, you know it's a really important part of that togetherness and creating almost like a family. You know, and like you said, we work more than maybe we sleep. So it is important that we take this time, ron, I think, to have these conversations and continue to get better at it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's a wonderful way, way to relate. Yeah, I think that's a wonderful way to wrap up what I wanted to get in this discussion. So, thank you, you're welcome I appreciate that, and to everybody that's been listening, I'd like to thank you. You're welcome. I appreciate that, and to everybody that's been listening, I'd like to thank you for attending and I look forward to having your presence at the next Canva conversation, mahalo.
